The Anatomy of Love with Dr. Helen Fisher

A Personal Note From Orion

We already know that biology affects our lives in more ways than we can imagine. However, in this Stellar Life episode, we dive into the four different brain systems and how these significantly influence our choices in life.

Today, Dr. Helen Fisher helps us understand why we usually act the way we do—especially in the realm of love. She’s here to affirm that we’re works-in-progress, constantly changing and gaining new interests.

Dr. Fisher uses brain scanning (fMRI) to study the systems in our brains that are related to our sex drive, romantic love, attachment, and many more. It’s no surprise that she was chosen By Business Insider as one of the “The Fifteen Most Amazing Women in Science” in 2015.

Currently, she’s a Senior Research Fellow at The Kinsey Institute and Chief Science Advisor to Match.com. As an author, she’s written and sold six books on lust, romance, and attachment in 25 countries. Quite known for her knowledge on everything and anything related to love, tune in as she shares how different biologic styles predispose our behavior.

In this Episode

[01:05] – Orion introduces Dr. Helen Fisher, awarded by Business Insider as one of The Fifteen Most Amazing Women in Science in 2015. She’s also a Senior Research Fellow at The Kinsey Institute, Chief Science Advisor at Match.com, and the author of six books on lust, romance, and attachment.
[06:19] – Dr. Fisher shares her most surprising finding at the beginning of her career.
[10:31] – The behavior of high testosterone people and who they are drawn to.
[16:25] – Marrying a person who lets you be who you are helps you do better.
[20:36] – People high on testosterone are prone to violence.
[27:00] – Dr. Fisher shares about her husband.
[31:48] – How explorers handle challenging situations.
[35:24] – Dr. Fisher talks about her friend who’s high on testosterone.
[41:58] – Dr. Fisher’s three tips for a stellar life.
[48:14] – Visit Dr. Helen Fisher’s new website to find more information about her work. Take the Personality Test and The Anatomy of Love to understand yourself better. Follow her on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay updated on her latest releases.

Jump to Links and Resources

About Today’s Show

Hi, Dr. Helen. Thank you so much for being here. I’m so excited. Welcome to the Stellar Life podcast.

Thank you. I’m delighted to be with you.

Before we begin, can you share a little bit about your life story and how you developed that passion to what you are doing today?

I talk about love. That’s what I’m well known for.

I talk about love. That’s what I’m well known for. As you know, I’ve put over 100 people into a brain scanner and studied everything about love. People often assume that I do it because of some tragic love affair of my own. Nobody gets out of love alive. We all have our little tragedies. But the bottom line is the reason I really got into this stems from the fact that I’m an identical twin. As I was growing up, everybody asked identical twins, do you like the same food? Do you have the same friends? Do you think alike?

Long before I knew there was an issue of the nature-nurture controversy, how much of our behavior is learned, and how much of it comes out of our biology, long before I learned about that argument, I knew that there was biology to my behavior because as a twin, people are constantly asking you that.

The bottom line is when it came time for my Ph.D., I had to write a Ph.D. dissertation. When I was in graduate school, people believed that everything was learned. Nothing came out of your biology at all. We were just a blank slate on which the environment inscribed personality. I knew that wasn’t true, so I thought to myself, okay, if there’s any part of human behavior at all that comes out of our biology, it would be the way we love, the way we form partnerships. Because as Darwin would have said, if you have four children and I have no children, you live on and I die out.

The bottom line is courtship, romance, attachment, marriage is essential to survival. I thought to myself, okay, if there’s any part of human behavior that would have been encoded in some way in our DNA, it would be our what we call reproductive strategy or strategies for having babies. That’s what really got me into studying love.

My Ph.D. dissertation really was on why we marry and why we form pair bonds. I mean, 97% of mammals do not pair up to breed their young. People do. It’s a hallmark of the human creature. It makes us very unusual among mammals. That’s where I started and then one thing led to another.

Nice. What was your most surprising finding at the beginning of your career?

Courtship, romance, attachment, marriage are essential to survival.

At the beginning of my career. Perhaps in the middle of it maybe was that romantic love was a drive. I always thought that it was an emotion or a whole series of emotions from high to low. And it is. There’s an awful lot of emotions involved. But when we looked into the brain, when we put people in the brain scanner, we found that the activity in the brain is really at the base of the brain, way below the cortex where you do your thinking, way below limbic regions in the middle of the head that orchestrate the emotions.

It’s a basic brain region that actually pumps out dopamine, gives you that elation, giving this euphoria, but that brain region lies in the bottom of the brain where all the drives are located. For example, it lies right next to the factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger. Thirst and hunger keep you alive today. Romantic love drives you to form a partnership, fall in love, and send your DNA into tomorrow.

We now call it a survival mechanism, something that evolved millions of years ago to drive us to form a partnership and send our DNA into tomorrow. The fact that it was a drive is pretty obvious now that I think about it, but at the time I hadn’t.

Right. It’s very primal to love.

Yes, it’s very primal. Well said, kid, well said.

I like that you call me a kid. How does that drive brain chemistry? How does that affect our choices?

Everybody loves it. I’ve had other colleagues who have looked at over 200 societies. Everywhere in the world, people feel the feeling of romantic love, but who we choose is a different issue. That varies tremendously, but there are all kinds of reasons that you fall in love with one person rather than another, all kinds of cultural reasons.

We tend to fall in love with somebody from the same socioeconomic and ethnic background, same general level of intelligence, good looks, and education, somebody with your same religious and social values, somebody with your economic and reproductive goals.

I always thought that romantic love was an emotion or a whole series of emotions from high to low.

Your childhood always plays a role. If your father had a wonderful sense of humor and your mother was really interested in math, you’re going to be more likely to choose somebody with those interests. But you can walk into a room, everybody is from your background, with the same general level of intelligence and good looks, and you don’t fall in love with all of them.

So, I began to think, well, maybe basic biology plays a role. I began to look through all the biological literature for any trait at all linked with any biological system. There are all kinds of systems in the brain that keep the eyes blinking, the heart beating, but they’re not linked with personality traits.

Anyway, after a couple of years of looking around, I was able to find that there are four brain systems, that each one of them is linked with a constellation of personality traits—the dopamine, serotonin, testosterone, and estrogen systems in the brain. I created a questionnaire to see to what degree you express the traits in each one of these four basic brain systems. Now, 15 million people are taking that questionnaire in 40 countries.

That’s so impressive.

Yes, I was lucky because I was working with match.com, the internet dating site. They put it on their site so I was able to watch who’s drawn to whom. As it turns out, I call them explorers. These are people who are very high in the dopamine system. Explorers gravitate to other explorers. They’re novelty-seeking, risk-taking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic people. They’re drawn to people like themselves.

High serotonin people—I call these people builders—are also drawn to people like themselves. They’re traditional, conventional, follow the rules, respect authority, tend to be religious, tend to be concrete thinkers. They’re drawn to people like themselves. A good example in America, I think, is Mitt Romney or Mike Pence.

We now call romantic love a survival mechanism, something that evolved millions of years ago to drive us to form a partnership and send our DNA into tomorrow. Share on X

People who are very high on the testosterone scale—I call them directors—are very drawn to their opposite, high estrogen people who I call negotiators. High testosterone people—there are women in that category, too. I think Hillary Clinton is one of them—are analytical, logical, direct, decisive, tough-minded, tend to be skeptical, good at things like math, engineering, computers, and mechanics. And they’re drawn to their opposite, the high estrogen, negotiator people.

Far down the road are what I call web-thinkers, the contextual, synthetic, holistic, long-term thinkers. They’re imaginative. They got good people skills, verbal skills, are good at reading posture, gesture, tone of voice, et cetera.

I was able to watch over what we’re naturally drawn to. What’s important about this is in my questionnaire, the bottom line is we all express all four of these brain systems. The issue is to what degree. For example, I’m very high on the dopamine system. I write books and I make speeches. That requires certainly curiosity but some creativity, and I deal a lot with the public. That’s some people skills, et cetera.

I’m low on the testosterone scale. I can barely add, and I have very little of the serotonin traits. I’m not traditional. I don’t tend to follow the rules unless they make sense to me.

My new husband and I got married last year.

Congratulations.

Thank you. I’m in my 70s. But anyway, the bottom line is he’s very high on dopamine like me. He wrote in The New York Times for 22 years now. He writes books. He and I are both high in dopamine, which works very well. He’s high on testosterone, and I’m high on estrogen, which also works very well.

I was able to watch over what we’re naturally drawn to.

The bottom line is it doesn’t matter if you’re gay, straight, trans, 11 years old, or 80 years old. These are basic brain systems. We tend to be drawn to certain people, not only for cultural reasons but because of chemistry. I know people will say we have chemistry. I’ve been able to begin to figure that out.

Do we have the same chemistry throughout our life? Or does the chemistry in our brain change, and therefore we tend to choose different partners down the road?

It’s a wonderful question. We all have certain experiences. For example, let’s say you’re a very high dopamine person. You choose a guy who’s very charismatic, humorous, good-looking, and everything, but he also drinks too much and is adulterous.

After you figure that one out and you leave the situation, you’re still going to be a high dopamine person, but you’re going to remember that experience and choose somebody who is also high dopamine but is high dopamine in a different way. They are great artists. They’re very humorous as well, but they’re not a drinker, and they’re not a cheater.

The bottom line is sure, we change to some degree, but not a great deal. For example, if you’re very high dopamine and you’re four years old, you’re going to be very curious about dolls, trucks, trains, et cetera. When you are 15, you’re going to be curious about boys, girls, or whatever. When you’re 45, you’re going to be curious about travel, books, architecture, movies, or the opera, et cetera. The fact that you are curious and creative remains the same. What you’re curious about is going to change with your life experiences.

Personality is most stable in middle age when you’ve got the right partner, the right kind of job, and friends that let you be who you are.

We do change to some degree. For example, when I was in graduate school, thinking back on this, there was one summer I was living in Colorado. I literally went to the bus station, almost with the clothes on my back, got on a bus, went from Denver, Colorado, 36 hours to San Francisco. I didn’t know a single person in San Francisco, got off the bus with I think about $36 in my pocket.

Wait, what is your type?

I’m very high dopamine. I’m an explorer. I have a very high estrogen. I’m a negotiator. Both of those.

So you can be both? Okay.

You can be all of the above. The amount is to what degree.

Got it, okay.

Anyway, I got to California. I find myself a job and an apartment. I wouldn’t do that today, Orion. No, I would not. Today, I’ve gone to 110 countries. I’ve traveled around the world many times. But today, I’m really interested in the opera.

Actually, I’m writing my next book about leadership, so I’m very curious about that. But would I get on a bus the way I was when I was 22 with $36 in my pocket and go to another city? No. My curiosity now goes in a different direction. But we can change to some extent.

You learn to adapt. You learn to stretch your personality.

For example, we learn to change. As small children, mother will say, smile for grandma, and you learn to smile. You learn to adapt. You learn to stretch your personality, but it’s tiring. I remember this one woman who said to me, “During the day, I’m a big deal CEO for a huge company. At night, my husband wants me to be silly, fluffy, make the dinner, clean up, and serve the potato chips on sports sunday.” I said, “Well, how did that work?” She said, “I did it, but it was very tiring. Finally, after 15 years of marriage, I left him.”

The bottom line is we do better when we marry a person who lets us be who we really are and when we find a job and friends who enable us to be who we really are. We can stretch. We can act out of character, but it’s tiring.

I didn’t take your questionnaire. I don’t know what my type is. I have a similar life story where when I was in my very early 20s, I only had $700 and I did my first international travel. I went to Japan. $700 those days in Tokyo were good for two days, three days.

Did you go alone?

I went by myself.

Good for you. Wow. Tell me how it worked out. They didn’t speak your language. It was a very different culture.

It was very odd. It was like a sea of people. In Israel, back in the day we didn’t have as many Asian people. Just to see a whole airport full of Asian people—most of them are shorter than me—was an interesting experience. Shocking, wonderful.

I ended up finding a job. I fell in love with a Japanese guy. He was just an extraordinary man. I ended up staying there for 3½ years.

If there's any part of human behavior at all that comes out of our biology, it would be the way we love, and the way we form partnerships. Share on X

Oh my goodness, wow.

Then, I traveled the world. I traveled to over 40 countries, and I did a lot of it exploring. But I was like, oh, that sounds familiar.

Did you learn Japanese?

I did.

Good for you.

That was the only way for me to stay there because I had to learn Japanese.

Back to you and the extraordinary expertise. When you look at those types, can you break down the pros and cons of each type?

The very high dopamine type of person, as I said, I call them explorers. They’re novelty-seeking, risk-taking, curious, creative, spontaneous, energetic people. They can also be very unpredictable, somewhat insincere, overly generous so that they throw their money around. There’s not been any studies of this, but my guess is—it’s just an educated guess—that they can be more inclined to various kinds of addictions because all of the addictions in some way or another affect the dopamine system in the brain. That would be my educated hypothesis.

People who are very high in the serotonin scale, builders, traditional, conventional, follow the rules, respect authority, concrete rather than theoretical thinkers, and tend to be more religious. On the downside, they can be moralistic, inflexible, and judgmental. Now, this is really a guess, but they may be more inclined to obsessive-compulsive disorder.

I feel as if I’ve snuck into Mother Nature’s kitchen and some of her basic recipes for human thinking and behavior.

This all needs to be studied more. I’ve now stumbled on how the brain works. I feel as if I’ve snuck into Mother Nature’s kitchen and some of her basic recipes for human thinking and behavior. I think that the high dopamine explorers might be romance junkies. They may be the kind that flip from one person to another. They like that initial high.

It is my guess that the high serotonin builders are going to be more likely to stay in a relationship for too long. They may be attachment junkies because it’s a sense of honor for them. They said they were going to do this. They’re going to be stubborn about doing this, and they may end up staying in a relationship for too long because they don’t want to be judged. They made a promise and they’re going to keep it even if there’s spousal abuse.

The high testosterone may be violence junkies and may be more on the autism spectrum, too. Anyway, these people, as I said, are analytical, logical, direct, decisive, tough-minded, and maybe more of a narcissist, too. Not all of them of course. There are some very well-adjusted people in all of these categories, but if there are some predispositions, I would think that the high testosterone type is going to be more inclined to violence and more predisposed to maybe narcissism and on the autism spectrum.

In the last group, the estrogen type may be more co-dependent, sticking to something, not because it’s the right thing to do but because they need to understand it. These people, as I mentioned, have good verbal skills, people skills, good at reading posture, gesture, tone of voice, see the big picture, holistic synthetic thinkers, empathetic.

That empathy may get itself overdone. They may get to feeling that they want to work it out. They may be more susceptible to just sticking with something, as I said, not because they promised to do it, but because they want to understand, they want to work through it, et cetera.

I don’t believe in the golden rule; “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” I believe in the platinum rule; “Do unto others as they would have done unto them.”

I do think that they are assumed to be more inclined to clinical depression or at least some of the characteristics of clinical depression. Perhaps also, they can placaters. They will say anything to keep peace and there are times when one really should bark back and say, that won’t work.

They have a very good memory. There are a lot of estrogen receptors in the hippocampus, the basic memory factory. They can remember something you did 5 years ago, something you said that was hurtful 10 years ago. They can nurse a grudge and that’s the downside of them, but there are upsides to all of these, of course.

Right, it’s not absolute. We all have different percentages of each type. Like you said, just the fact that you have high dopamine or high testosterone doesn’t mean that you have the pros or the cons of that trait, right?

It means that you probably have a lot of pros. That’s what my questionnaire studies. By the way, you can get that questionnaire certainly in my most recent book, Anatomy of Love, second edition, but also in the book, Why We Love. It’s all over the Internet. You can go to my website, helenfisher.com. It’s available. It’s just paper and pencil. You can do it easily. Actually, I’ve got a newer version of the second version of it which is even better. I really like it. But it costs quite a bit of money now to take that.

Anatomy of Love by Dr. Helen Fisher

It’s part of a company. I started a company with a co-founder called NeuroColor. Actually, we go into businesses and help them understand their clients, help them work together more effectively, et cetera. That’s the NeuroColor questionnaire. It’s basically the same questionnaire, but I added and perfected some things. Hopefully, that will be on the market pretty soon at a very low price. Anyway, you can take my Fisher Temperament Inventory in any of my books or just go to the Internet. There’s no money involved, just paper and pencil.

That’s very exciting. Do you have the same questionnaire for kids? I have a son who is almost two years old. I wonder what his type is and how can I analyze it?

Very nice question, Orion.

As we speak, he just entered the room and he was supposed to be with grandma. I’ll ask the question again. I have a two-year-old son. If I want to recognize his type if he’s high dopamine or high serotonin, high testosterone or high estrogen, how do I recognize that in him without taking the questionnaire?

First of all, don’t forget that he’s going to be a combination of all of them. Personality is not very stable in childhood. It’s actually not very stable in old age either because older people have learned to accommodate. It’s most stable in middle age when you’ve got the right partner, who lets you be who you are, you got the right kind of job, and friends that let you be who you are.

It’s not terribly stable and children are very susceptible to peer pressure. They’re going to try and see where… with their friends. Nevertheless, I think a lot of these characteristics appear very rapidly. How curious is your son? Is he fearful? When he goes into a room and there are a lot of new toys, does he rush for them? Does he hold back and cling to your leg? If there are a lot of new people, does he hide behind you or does he go, shake hands, and start smiling?

Why We Love by Dr. Helen Fisher

I have a wonderful friend that I’ve worked with and matched for years, Amy Kennedy. She has a two-year-old son. He goes into the kitchen and opens and shuts the kitchen drawers where the silverware is. He wants to know how the drawer works. That’s a kid who’s probably a high testosterone child. I never, when I walked into a room when I was two years old, wanted to know how the drawer worked.

My son wants to know how everything works. With new people, he gets shy, but then he starts flirting with them.

Kids are very flirtatious. Is he verbally skilled at age two?

Extremely. Very advanced. And bilingual too.

And he’s curious?

Very curious, yes.

I wouldn’t want to really say, but he’s probably quite high on the dopamine and the testosterone scale. We’ll figure out about the estrogen scale. It’s very interesting. The man that I married is very high on three scales. Very high on dopamine scale. He’s been all over the world. He is a big, well-known writer, but he’s also a techie. He’s got some of the verbal skills of the high estrogen. He’s empathetic with his family, but he’s not worldwide empathetic, so he scores lower on the estrogen scale.

I guess your son, there’s got to be a combination of all them. But when I was at age two, I was higher on dopamine and testosterone. It’s very interesting. For example, when my husband’s son was around six years old—this child is now a grown guy—he was very high on the serotonin scale. He’s traditional, conventional, and follows the rules. He’s religious. He respects authority. He’s detail-oriented, all serotonin.

Anyway, they were going to a playground and it was beginning to get dark. My husband was rushing into the playground and the six-year-old stopped at the entrance of the playground. He said, are you sure, dad, that we’re supposed to be in here after dark? He was already following the rules and respecting authority.

I do think that once you get to know the traits linked with each one of these brain systems you begin to see it in the child.

I do think that once you get to know the traits linked with each one of these brain systems—and the way to really do that is to read my book, Why Him? Why Her? I really go through it in that book or any of my academic articles—you begin to see it in the child. You begin to see, oh, wow, he’s more curious than his little friend who comes over to play. Oh, the toy broke. He wants to fix it and the other kid wants to step on it. I think once you get to understand the four styles of thinking and behaving, you begin to see it not only in children, but in everybody else, even dogs and cats.

Which one of your books is the one that is specific for those four types?

Why Him? Why Her? But it’s also discussed in one chapter of my most recent book, Anatomy of Love, second edition. Also, it’s going to be in my next book. I haven’t got a title for that book yet, but that’s going to be for business as well.

It was very interesting. It suddenly occurred to me, wow, my work doesn’t apply just to love. It applies to any relationship. One of my best friends is very high on the serotonin scale and I am very high with dopamine. She’s detail-oriented. Everything has to go to a schedule. She makes plans weeks in advance for this or that, and the next thing.

I find when I’m around her that I’m almost acting, that I’m not comfortable with who I am around her. I am trying to fit into another person’s worldview. I like her. She’s very smart and very interesting, but I’m not naturally who I am. After a while, almost once you get to know all this stuff, you begin to hunch. Okay, this person is this way, so I should act this way around them. That’s key. I don’t believe in the golden rule; “Do unto others as you would have done unto you.” I believe in the platinum rule; “Do unto others as they would have done unto them.”

It suddenly occurred to me that my work doesn’t apply just to love. It applies to any relationship.

Beautiful. That leads me to my next question because if I want to build rapport with one of those types, how do I even recognize them without taking the quiz just looking at them? If I just met someone in a networking event, how can I instantly know? Can I have an educated guess that they’re probably this type? For this type, I should build rapport this way.

This is all in my next book. It’s easy to make mistakes. Let’s put it that way. The more you get to know somebody, the more you can see the various traits. For example, if I’m at a conference, somebody comes up to me, and they’re very sweet, almost deferential, curl their shoulders, and immediately say, “Well, Dr. Fisher, I haven’t read your books, but I thought it was very interesting that you’ve blah-blah-blah,” self-deprecating, I figured they’re going to be high estrogen. I figured I could look straight into their face, do what’s called the “anchoring gaze,” smile sweetly, talk more intimately with them, et cetera.

If somebody comes up to me and immediately wants to know every single detail on everything, my first assumption could be wrong, but my first assumption is that they’re high serotonin builders. These people really like the details. If they come up, immediately challenge me, and immediately say, “Well, I read this other thing about that. Are you positive that you know?”

Starting strong.

Yeah, just starting strong. If somebody comes up to me and says, “I’ve got a good idea. You said this and that and I think that was really right,” and go on with their own ideas about it, that’s going to be high dopamine, highly explorer.

How do you treat the explorers? Do you just ride there? Especially after you just spoke for an hour, people come to you, and you need to almost be a social ninja with all those people and all those different responses, how do you handle that? If an explorer comes and says, “I know your idea was such and such and you should think about this and that,” how do you deal with that? How do you handle them?

People feel romantic love everywhere in the world, but who we choose is a different issue. There are all kinds of reasons that you fall in love with one person rather than another. Share on X

It depends on the person, but the one thing I have always done when I’m attacked is keep my temper. Always. There have been times when suddenly, somebody really insults you and you get a flare, almost as if your ears are pounding. I’m able to just smile and keep my voice in a normal state no matter how I feel. That’s essential just to keep myself together. But most people don’t come up to attack me.

Of course not, but there’s always like, why not of…

I will try to answer their questions. I try to listen to what they got to say, number one. I learned a lot from what people say. Oddly enough, I often learn much more from the public than I do from other academics because other academics stick to a much narrower view. These people are often thinking way outside the box in ways I never thought of, so I learned a lot from the question.

I liked the question and answer period in my deliveries because I learned so much. And of course, if I don’t know the answer, I say I don’t know the answer, I’ll get back to you, or nobody knows the answer, whatever. How do I deal with them? I try to answer their questions. I try to ask them about themselves. I like to figure out why they asked that question, where they’re coming from.

In one of your lectures that I was listening to, you told a story about being in a black-tie event and you were surrounded by (I think) five guys. One of them had really high testosterone and he was just not being very kind to you. You assumed the body language of an estrogen-dominated negotiator becoming smaller. Then finally, you had enough and you said something that you describe as nasty and your body language changed to match his high testosterone. You put him in his place.

Dominance matching is when the high testosterone type will attack, and they expect you to attack back.

I did. It’s called dominance matching. How charming that you remember it. Dominance matching is when the high testosterone type will attack and they expect you to attack back.

If they expect you to attack back and you don’t, then they don’t respect you.

Yeah, they think you’re weak. Just like you said, these two basic postural messages, crouch and loom, throughout the animal community, all kinds of animals like a dog when it’s stolen your dinner will slink away with its tail between his legs because it’s in the crouch position.

This guy was really taking me to the cleaners and he was enjoying it. The other three were watching. I just got smaller and smaller. Finally, I don’t know what happened, my brain snapped and I turned around. What I said, Orion, was not just nasty. It was vicious. I don’t remember what it was, but it was vicious. It was also funny. They all just became really stiff, barred teeth, clenched teeth, drawn lips, the whole deal. I said to myself, oh, Helen. He’s like a woman. He’ll never forgive you. If he thinks like a man in his dominance matching, he will respect you.

Anyway, the bottom line is you’ll just be riding the waves as I explained it. All of a sudden, he threw up his hands. He said, oh, well and he started to laugh. That led the others to laugh, too. And that man has respected me from that day to this.

It’s very interesting because it’s hard for me to do that. I will tell you another story that I haven’t mentioned in public. I’ve got a girlfriend with very high testosterone. This girl eats rocks for breakfast. To me, she’s big time all the time. I’m crazy better. She’s very interesting. She’s very smart. She’s very funny. There’s a lesson here.

People who are attacking sometimes think that it is good.

Anyway, I walked in to have lunch with her one day. She said, “Hey, Helen, where’d you get that purse?” I said, “I bought it on the street.” She said, “It looks like it. It’s cheap.” I said, “Mary, that’s rude.” Jerry and I just let it slide, but this time, Mary was so rude. She said, “Helen, I’m just being honest. I’m trying to help you.”

The bottom line is these people who are attacking sometimes think that this is good. What’s interesting about that lunch is she forgot it instantly. She bounced off back to her business, but I suffered from it. For about three days, I said to myself, Helen, why did you attack back? Why did you lose your composure? It’s not comfortable for the high estrogen to attack. If they’re really mad, high estrogen will get really mad and will certainly protect their children and their ideas. But the bottom line is we can act out of character, but it’s tiring and it can be uncomfortable.

I want to take a step forward beyond building a rapport. How can we influence those four types?

Not quite sure what you mean by influence.

I have somebody I coach and I notice he or she is this one personality type, how could I talk to them in a way that will influence change in them? How will I build even a deeper rapport with them to make them shift the behavior or accept an idea that can help them?

Positive relationships are important. Get rid of the caustic people in your life and focus on the positive ones.

Once again, I will write about all this in my next book, so I’m really glad that you’re interested in it. There are a lot of things to do, but let’s just pick a couple of them. For the high testosterone type, these people get right to the point and they don’t suffer fools badly. With that kind of person, I get right to the point, too.

You can be very honest, very fresh, very direct, very blunt. You can tell them exactly how it is and how you feel about it. If you’re too nuanced, they won’t get it. They’re not going to read your posture, just your tone of voice very easily. If you’re annoyed, you got to tell them that you’re annoyed. If you’re happy at what they said, you have to tell them. You got to be very clear. They can stand your bluntness, your honesty.

The other thing I do with high testosterones is I don’t look them in the eye. For millions of years they faced their enemies. They sat side by side with friends. With men, particularly if I’m angry, I will stand really at an angle or I’ll sit side by side and look straight ahead as I get angry.

It doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, trans, 11 years old, or 80 years old. We tend to be drawn to certain people, not only for cultural reasons but because of chemistry. Share on X

One of the problems that mothers do with high testosterone little boys is they go straight at them with their fists clench and look straight at the eye. The kid is so overwhelmed that they’re really probably not even listening to what their parents say. With high testosterone, I don’t do the anchoring gaze. I look away. I get to the point. I am blunt, honest. I say what I mean. I tell them how I feel because I’m not going to figure that out.

With the high estrogen, you can go away around the band with them. You can really talk about feelings. You can really engage their feelings. You can ask them more and more about how they felt during the situation, why they felt that way. Explore feelings with them.

These people are often ruminators. They think over and over about something. Ask about the rumination. Find out what they are—like a mouse on a treadmill—thinking about over and over and discuss that with them. Point out that they’re doing all that. If they’re really raising the ghost, try and find a way for them to get off that path. Sometimes with me, I’ll just say stop it. Stop thinking about that. Pick another topic because all you’re doing is creating more anxiety for yourself.

With the high serotonin, the builder, I emphasize tradition. I go with the details. I often talk about what’s right. I respect their need for closure. These people need closure. Let’s say you’re with a person and you don’t get to address a certain issue. Don’t let it hang until next time. Say very clearly, we never got to talking about that incident with your mother. We’ll start with that next time at 9 AM on Thursday.

Marry the right person and get the right job because we do better when we marry someone who lets us be who we are. Share on X

Give them the schedule. Give them the plan. When they walk into the room or just on the phone, whatever you’re doing with them, just say, today, we’re going to talk about these three things. Does that work for you? Plan it out. They need a process. They need schedules. They need procedures.

With the high dopamine, these people are often very charismatic and very charming, but they don’t look in. They look out. They’re not good at self-reflection, so you might even say to them, “Oh, wow, you’re the very charming, charismatic type.” That type apparently doesn’t really like to look in instead of out. Let’s do a little practice session about thinking about yourself a little bit more and how you might have felt.

I know this is a little self-serving, but if you gave him my book or at least the questionnaire and explained to them a little more of who they are, it might help them understand why they see the world the way they do.

Awesome. I want to be respectful of your time, so before we say goodbye for now, two questions, what are your three quick tips to living a stellar life and where can people find you?

Why Him? Why Her? by Dr. Helen Fisher

Three tips for a stellar life. Marry the right person, get the right job—all of the basics for God’s sake—keep moving. Get some exercise every day. Learn something new every day. Smile. It’s very good for you. Most important thing is to get a positive partnership. Hugs drive up oxytocin. It gives you calmness and a feeling of protection. Laughter drives up the dopamine system. It gives you energy, optimism, focus, and motivation. Play with that person. It brings along brain growth, emotional processing, decision-making, and reduces pain.

The bottom line is positive relationships are important. Get rid of the caustic people in your life and focus on the positive ones. We’ll go with that.

In terms of where to find me, I just finished my new website, helenfisher.com.

Congratulations. You’re all over YouTube and you have amazing Ted Talks, so people can find you there. Dr. Helen Fisher, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you so much. Thank you.

Thank you, Orion. Happy day to you.

And thank you, listeners. Remember to marry the right person, move, smile, hug, laugh, and have a stellar life. This is Orion, until next time.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

{✓} Be observant. You socialize better when you understand someone’s personality and habits. Pay attention to their behavior.
{✓} Don’t be reactive. Instead, take time to calm down and gather your thoughts before responding. When dealing with challenges, be level-headed.
{✓} Learn from others. Knowledge comes when you’re open-minded. Engage in conversations and pick up useful pieces of information.
{✓} Be direct. When dealing with high testosterone types, get straight to the point and don’t try to be nuanced.
{✓} Explore feelings. When dealing with high estrogen types, ask them how they feel. Ask questions to help them process their emotions.
{✓} Give details. When dealing with high serotonin types, respect their need for detail. Follow their schedules and processes.
{✓} Choose what’s right for you. From your spouse to your job, take time to know what you want, and pick what brings you peace and happiness.
{✓} Exercise often. Follow a healthy lifestyle as much as you can. Choose a routine that works for your body and schedule.
{✓} Don’t settle. You can achieve anything you set your heart to. Ensure you’re happy with your choices and you won’t have regrets.
{✓} Visit Dr. Helen Fisher’s new website to find more information about her work. Take the Personality Test and The Anatomy of Love to understand yourself better. Follow her on Twitter and LinkedIn to stay updated on her latest releases.

About Dr. Helen Fisher

Chosen in 2015 by Business Insider as one of “The Fifteen Most Amazing Women in Science.”

Helen Fisher is Senior Research Fellow at The Kinsey Institute and Chief Science Advisor to Match.com. She uses brain scanning (fMRI) to study the neural systems associated with the sex drive, romantic love, attachment, rejection, love addiction and long-term partnership happiness. She has written six books on lust, romance and attachment now sold in 25 countries–among them: WHY WE LOVE; WHY HIM? WHY HER? and ANATOMY OF LOVE

She also studies courtship trends in the digital age, using a representative sample of 50,000 single Americans to examine hooking up, friends with benefits, video chatting and why today’s dating patterns may lead to decades of relative family stability–due to a trend she calls “slow love.” Using data collected from her biologically-based questionnaire, the Fisher Temperament Inventory, now taken by 15+ million people in 40 countries, she is also studying the biological basis of personality and is a pioneer in examining the neurochemistry of team-building, innovation and leadership to explain how people of different biological styles of thinking are predisposed to work, buy, innovate and lead.