A Personal Note From Orion

Welcome, stellar listeners!

Are you constantly putting everyone else’s needs before your own? If you’re a high achiever who feels responsible for fixing everyone’s problems, this episode is your permission slip to prioritize yourself.

As someone who has struggled with perfectionism and the need to control outcomes, I deeply resonated with today’s conversation. My guest, Terri Cole, brings 27 years of psychotherapy experience and a fascinating background as a former talent agent to help us understand why we take on too much responsibility for others.

Terri introduces us to the concept of “high-functioning codependency” – a pattern many successful women experience but rarely recognize in themselves. She explains how our drive to help others, while coming from a good place, can actually harm our relationships and drain our energy when taken too far.

She shares powerful techniques for setting boundaries, making decisions without guilt, and breaking free from the exhausting cycle of people-pleasing. Her approach is especially valuable for empaths and highly sensitive people who want to maintain their caring nature while protecting their peace.

Whether you’re a business leader, parent, partner, or friend, this conversation will help you show up more authentically in all your relationships while maintaining your own well-being.

Join me for this transformative conversation about setting healthy boundaries, honoring your needs, and creating deeper connections – without burning yourself out in the process. So, without further ado, let’s dive into the show!

In This Episode

• [02:50] – Orion welcomes Terri Cole, a licensed psychotherapist and relationship expert, highlighting her work with diverse clients and her ability to make complex psychological concepts accessible.
• [04:25] – Terri describes her latest book, “Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency,” and how it addresses the common misconception that codependency only affects those who are not in control.
• [14:48] – Terri suggests that high-functioning codependents should avoid auto-advice giving and instead ask expansive questions to help others develop their own solutions.
• [19:09] – Terry advises high-functioning codependents to take care of their own needs and not to self-sacrifice, as this can lead to resentment and burnout.
• [24:24] – Terri highlights the importance of understanding and respecting personal boundaries, both in terms of what is one’s responsibility and what is not.
• [39:13] – Terri addresses the fear of rejection, explaining that it often stems from childhood experiences and unresolved traumas.
• [42:56] – Terri advises that it is important to be willing to feel the discomfort of rejection and to understand that it is not a reflection of one’s worth but rather a part of life’s experiences.
• [50:19] – Terri shares her top tips for living a stellar life.

Jump to Links and Resources

About Today’s Show

Hi, Terri. Welcome to the show. I am so excited to have a conversation with you.

Orion, I am so excited to have a conversation with you.

Thank you. Before we begin, let’s share a bit about yourself, your background, and your passion. We had already spoken a little bit before the interview, and I really felt your heart, but I want the listeners to hear it, too.

I have been a psychotherapist for 27 years. I was a talent agent before that for almost a decade. I’m passionate about helping people live the lives they deserve, which are good and fulfilling, even in a hard world, which is what we’re living in, we can create beautiful experiences. I feel like I’m uniquely skilled in helping people get out of their own way when it comes to love, communication, boundaries, and codependency because these are experiences that many of us have. There was nobody to teach us how to do this stuff. So, why do I teach what I teach? It’s what I need to learn the most and how much of my life changed when I did learn it.

I went over your website and blog, and they contain incredible information. Then you mentioned high-functioning codependence. What is that?

I’m passionate about helping people live the good, fulfilling lives they deserve, even in a difficult world.

Well, my latest book is about this. It’s called Too Much: A Guide to Breaking the Cycle of High-Functioning Codependency. This is a topic that’s near and dear to my heart because I am a recovering, high-functioning codependent. In my therapy practice, what was happening is I have women very much like you, very much like me, who are highly capable, highly motivated, and highly successful. So if I would say to them, “Hey, what you’re describing is a codependent pattern,” they would immediately reject the notion. 

They would say, “No, not me. Everyone’s dependent on me. I’m making all the money. I’m making all the moves. What are you talking about?” I realized that my clients didn’t understand codependency, so I started really delving into it. I’ve come up with the term high-functioning codependency and identified it as a pattern of behavior in thousands of women I’ve worked with over the years. It is codependency for our modern time. 

So, what is it? In my opinion, it’s you being overly invested in the feelings, states, outcomes, circumstances, situations, finances, and careers of the people in your lives to the detriment of your own internal peace. We’re not talking about being concerned, right? That’s different. When you’re a high-functioning codependent, you take it one step further, and you feel responsible for those things in other people’s lives.

I feel that a lot, especially with my son. I have a five-year-old. I know I’m not supposed to be responsible for his happiness, but I’m like, “Let me just shield you from the world, shield you from pain, and build walls around you so you will never get hurt.” I understand it’s hard, but when you want something so much for somebody you love, it’s hard not to be so codependent. How is that a codependency?

Well, it’s not your side of the street. Parenting is different, right? We can talk about appropriate boundaries and interactions for parenting because it’s different when you have a five-year-old. You have been tasked by the world and by your nature to be fully responsible. We’re to make sure these humans live. We ensure we’re feeding them well, that they sleep, and that their nervous system is okay.

Too Much by Terri Cole

I understand the difficulty of being a mother and a grandmother myself of how we go from the world being fully responsible for this human to then they get to a certain age as they get older where we’re supposed to be like, “Okay, good luck.” That’s not how it is. That’s not how we’re going to do it successfully. If you’re talking about parenting kids and not being codependent, one thing that you can do right now is when your five-year-old is in pain, instead of giving solutions, you can just ask expansive questions. 

“You had a bad day at school today. You had a fight with that other boy. So you tell me, babe, what do you think you should do tomorrow? How do you think you should handle this?” A five-year-old might say, “I have no idea,” but what seeds are we planting when we go from high-functioning codependence? A lot of times, we are auto-advice givers. We can’t stop saying, “We are dying to tell you.”

I was the worst defender ever. I didn’t even have to know you to tell you what I thought you should do. I could overhear you on a bus and say, “I have a thought.” So trust me, anybody listening to this, there is no judgment whatsoever when I talk about this. But if you make one simple shift from auto-advice-giving, we’ll certainly discuss the traits of high-functioning codependency so people listening can see themselves. 

But I think many of us can identify with this auto advice-giving, especially with children. I suggest changing it up. It doesn’t mean you’ll never tell your best friend or child your thoughts about what might be a great course of action. But my point is if you get into recovery from being high-functional and co-dependent, it isn’t the first thing that you say. It’s not reactive. “I see you’re in pain. That triggers me to want to fix it.” We’re trying to avoid that. 

We must tolerate how it makes us feel when the people we love are in pain because nobody likes to be a project. This is what happens when we endlessly auto-fix others. We do not relate to them in a healthy, human way. We do not respect their right to be sovereign. We tend to our tender hearts. That’s like saying, “I can’t stand to see you in pain. I cannot tolerate this feeling.” 

We must tolerate how it makes us feel when the people we love are in pain because nobody likes to be a project. This is what happens when we endlessly auto-fix others.

But here’s the thing. Orion, what we learn as we do this work is that you can actually tolerate that feeling and that it is way more loving to be with someone during a dark night of the soul, in the foxhole with them, tolerating your feeling instead of trying to fix them, compassionately witnessing them saying, “I’m here. Tell me how I can best support you,” rather than making assumptions about what other people should do. 

It doesn’t matter whether you’re a high-functioning or just a regular garden variety codependent. At the base, the foundation of this behavior is an overt or covert bid or desire to control other people’s outcomes. You don’t want your kid to make a mistake in school or have a problem with someone. You don’t want your best friend to marry the idiot. So you’re telling her everything she should do instead.

Like, our hearts are in the right place, and I say “us” because I’m in recovery, but it’s still my nature not to want the people I love to be in pain. I don’t want you to be in pain. It is hard to change those things when we’re empaths and highly sensitive people, but we don’t have to change our feelings nature. All we’re doing is changing our behavior. The reason why I talk about it is because it’s just like being in recovery. 

Let’s say I’m in recovery from alcohol addiction, which I am. This doesn’t mean I don’t feel like having a glass of wine. It just means I don’t have a glass of wine because I’m in recovery. This is the same thing. When we start to identify the traits and behaviors of being a high-functioning codependent, what are the things that we can change about those traits and behaviors? If those traits and behaviors are causing us pain in our lives, conflict, and tension, if you’re a high-functioning codependent, you might feel overly responsible for fixing other people’s problems, right? 

You might go above and beyond, even when people have not asked you to, and you might do things because you think they need to do something rather than wait for someone to ask you. 

I think I’m like that with my mom.

Like what? Tell me.

I’m trying to help, guide, and protect her. She’s getting older, not very technologically savvy, and doesn’t have as much life force as she used to, so she needs more help. I really sometimes have to hold myself back from telling her how to live her life and what’s best for her.

What you’re talking about is that sometimes, as our parents age, what we do is appropriate. It’s appropriate to say to my mother, “If you can’t do your food shopping anymore, I will help, or I’ll come once a week and do whatever.” So there’s appropriate helping, and then there’s inappropriate helping. It’s the same thing with kids. Kids come to us, and we are tasked with guiding them. 

This is part of our mandate as parents, but there are ways to guide them and help them gain really important skills in life, like deductive reasoning and conflict resolution, understanding that there are consequences for behavior and critical thinking.

All of those things we can do when we step back when we feel a little more secure, and we go, “Okay, I’m going to ask my 15-year-old how they think they should get themselves out of this jam because they failed their chemistry final or whatever it is. So, what are you intending to do? What do you plan to do?” Even if the kid says, “I don’t know,” you can say, “Okay, if you did know, what would it be? What does your gut say?” 

You are worthy simply by virtue of being alive.

Here’s the thing. What that 15-year-old thinks that they should do, even though they’re not an adult yet, is important, and it’s important information. Even if you go, “No, you’re not going to do that.” If you ask a seven-year-old who fought with a kid in school yesterday, “What do you think you should do tomorrow?” And he says, “I think I should go in and punch Billy in the face.” You’re not going to say that’s a good idea. 

But what happens when we ask expansive questions to children, adults, and parents? We’re deepening the intimacy in those relationships instead of endlessly trying to control them, which is really what we are doing.

What if they give you the wrong answer? You’re like, “What should you do with that bully?” “I should just be quiet and play with him more so maybe he will like me.” and I’m like, “Don’t! That’s not the right answer!”

You can say, “Okay, what makes you think that’s the way to go? So, you want him to like you. Well, what about this? I have a thought about that. I think it would be good if he respected you. What would the behavior be to get him to respect you? Let’s talk about that because liking is one thing, but you know what, babe? Respecting is more important than people liking you. Because first of all, we don’t even know if you like him. If we think he’s a bully, you probably don’t like him that much, and that’s okay. But whether someone likes you or doesn’t like you, respecting you is important in the same way you should respect others.” 

When we ask expansive questions, we deepen the intimacy in our relationships instead of endlessly trying to control them.

Let’s look at it from that lens. For example, even if you’re talking to a seven-year-old, the truth is that you could have that conversation without shaming them. And then now you have this information. The seven-year-old has now revealed to you that they’re a bit of a people pleaser and that they’re afraid, and that’s okay. Right now, you have something to work with as a parent. It’s very much a win-win. 

Even if they give you a “wrong answer,” right? If the kid says, “I’m gonna go beat him up tomorrow,” we do not think that’s the right answer either, probably, right? You want to teach them to use their words and whatever. But when you think about this in your adult relationships, auto-advice giving, auto-accommodating, we will self-sacrifice so that other people meet their needs. Auto-accommodation can happen anywhere. You can do it right out in public. 

I tell a story in the book of being at a hair salon in New York City on a really busy Saturday. They have a mask on my hair. So, I’m just laying in the sink, not doing anything, because you got to wait for 20 minutes. But now, suddenly, the sink line is backing u,p and I’m laying there feeling like a jerk because they’re not doing anything to my hair. I’m just laying there taking up a sin,k and I’m sure I’m more stressed out than every next person standing in line. 

I finally called over the assistant and said, “You know, I could move.” She’s like, “Yeah, lady, we got it. Don’t worry. We do this every Saturday. That’s a perfect example of me trying to take responsibility for something not on my side of the street. I could have been listening to a podcast, resting my exhausted brain. I could have been doing many other things, but instead, I was getting anxious and taking responsibility for a situation that wasn’t mine. 

I realized, “If I do this, other people do this for sure.” I made a video on YouTube, and it went viral. People were like, “My God, I do this everywhere. I can never relax. I’m always dialed into my direct surroundings.” That is another quality of being a high-functioning co-dependent because we can become codependently attached to people in our lives or anywhere. Even if you don’t know people, you can feel responsible for them. 

They want to sit together. “Should you move?” Should you, right? Like, we’re very caring. If you’re a high-functioning codependent, you’re also probably a caring person, and there’s a tendency to over-function, which is doing more than our share in our relationships, at work, in family situations where you’re the one everybody counts on. But there’s a cost to doing that. We must be able to sort of look at what we are doing, and we can certainly talk about why we are doing it. But what is the cost of doing it?

Right. I feel like the big “why” for people-pleasing or being so hypervigilant, scanning our surroundings, and taking care of everyone is something I understand very well. It really reminds me of someone I know very well. It probably stems from some unresolved childhood traumas or beliefs. Of course, the cost is our sanity, freedom, and health. How do we break out of that? Do we go back to do inner child work? How many times can we do inner child work and whatever methodologies are out there until we finally solve it? Is it ever solvable?

Well, here’s the thing. It’s recoverable. I don’t think you’ll ever be cured. No, because this is part of your nature. A part of my nature is being very caring. I’m an empath. I’m a highly sensitive person. We can learn, though, to take better care of our energy. We can learn to stay on our own side of the street. We can learn what we’re responsible for and not responsible for, and our relationships will improve.

Back to the scene of the crime, which is childhood. I have had clients from all over the world and people from every kind of situation that you can imagine. I don’t think I very rarely, in almost 30 years of doing this, have I ever met a woman who did not fall into the category of being a high-functioning codependent in some way, meaning feeling overly responsible for other people’s happiness in life and accomplishments. 

If you’re a high-functioning codependent, you’re also probably a caring person, and there’s a tendency to over-function, which is doing more than our share in our relationships, at work, and in family situations where you’re the one everybody counts on.

This is so common, and this happens with women who do not have trauma backgrounds. What I’m saying is that you could have come from a pretty “normal family,” not growing up in a war-torn country and still have this tendency because when we all have been raised in a patriarchal system, the roles assigned to women, what we’re supposed to do, how we’re supposed to be, be agreeable, be compliant, make sure everyone else is okay, and give anybody the shirt off your back. The more self-sacrificing, the better. This is messaging in every book and culture, worse in some, better in others.

Yes.

But besides some indigenous tribes, in some places where women are sort of running the show, most of us have had this experience. There’s a lot of unlearning we need to do. Why should we care about doing this work? Well, because if we don’t do it, we end up martyred, resentful, burnt out, and have autoimmune disorders.

We end up living what I call life lite because we’re always in our heads worrying about, thinking about, and anticipating problems. The hypervigilance you spoke of before, Orion, is so real in so many women’s daily lives that we’re not experiencing this moment in the same impactful way. If we are living so much in our heads and trying to control everything, anticipate needs, make sure nobody has a problem, and ensure everything gets done, we’re always doing all the things that we’re doing as women. 

So, life is only about half as sweet or impactful for us as it should be. That’s a huge cost. It’s also one of the worst things because we’re also hyper-independent. We’re not that great at asking for help. We’re not that great at allowing other people to do things for us, at least many of the high-functioning co-dependents I’ve worked with and myself. I was the worst. I couldn’t even let the cab driver lift my huge bag. I’m like, “I got it. Don’t worry about it.” 

I’m not letting the kid at the grocery bag my stuff. I’m just like, “Help someone else. I’ll do it.? Why? Partly because I don’t want to be a burden, partly because, from talking to thousands of women over the last 10 years about this, women don’t want to owe someone. I don’t want to feel like I owe you something when I’m at the end of this, which breeds codependency as opposed to interdependency, where I depend on you, and you depend on me. When we’re codependent, we’re not depending on other people.

Yes, so I had to do a lot of work on myself this whole journey into my feminine and allow my man to open the door and let people do things for me. It felt fake at first, but I got it now. I’m like, “Yeah, of course, hold this for me. Open the door. Hello, please do this.” I allow others to do something for me and let go of that control or the need to be a martyr somehow. I like that word. There is some glory to it. I always have this story of survival. I did it my way.

Right. It’s yours.

I’m in the process in the last few years of learning boundaries, letting go, and letting God. I love what you said. I actually say it to my son a lot. “What do you think?” I also like the other sentence. “If you didn’t know, what would it be? Like, I don’t know. If you didn’t know, what I don’t know.”

It’s funny that it’s like a therapeutic intervention; it can really help people get to their answers because you’re like, “You can’t get it wrong.” Even if you’re kind of guessing, it’s okay because it’s your life. And even if I’m your parent, and ultimately I’ll probably be the say at this, what you’re saying to a child when you’re asking them what they think, and you’re quiet enough to listen, you’re saying, “You matter. What you think matters.” 

Interestingly, I grew up with three older sisters. I had a pretty negligent and absent father, even though he was physically present. I was always very close to my mother, who’s turning 88 this year. From the earliest I can remember, my mother, probably when I was two, would bend down right into my face and say, “Do you want to do that or don’t?” She cared if I’d say, “You don’t want to wear that sweater. It’s scratchy.” “Okay. You do. It’s all right.” 

I was self-determined in some ways, even as a little kid, but what it did for me, even with having a father wound, having a parent who inquired about what I thought made me feel like what I thought, what I wanted, how I felt mattered and should matter to other people as well. That was really helpful, especially with my female relationships. Of course, I had the repetition of the father’s wounds. 

When we have this amplified fear of rejection, it is a child’s fear, not our grownup fear.

My male relationships when I was younger weren’t great, but this is something when you get into recovery from being a high-functioning codependent, it’s the gift that you’re giving to the people in your life—the gift of your attention, like in a real way, not fixing, witnessing compassionately and lovingly. That’s love. It requires us to be uncomfortable sometimes. When you really love someone, you’re like, “Okay, I’m willing to sit in this discomfort and think about how hard that is. I used not to be able to do it at all. I couldn’t stop saying, “I know exactly what you should do.”

I know the perfect doctor and therapist, and I have the perfect book. What I learned through my own therapeutic process and then helping thousands of women is that I was really centering myself as the solution to everybody’s problem. It’s so presumptuous right now. I think about it. It’s like cringe, but you know, I thought that was love. I thought that was devotion. And until I learned from a therapeutic process what I was really doing. 

When I did learn that, even though it was painful, it felt embarrassing, and all of those things really inspired me to stop doing it. I was like, “I love this person,” which means asking them what they think and letting them talk. Here’s the thing. Everyone has the right to succeed or fail, to thrive or fail. But when you’re an HFC, we do not like people flailing. We want to help all the people flailing. I think that something is loving about that. 

When you get into recovery, as I walk you through the book, you realize that it’s not your side of the street, that everyone is on their own journey in this life, and that you may not understand why they need to learn what they need to learn the way they need to learn it. But you don’t have to write. You have to be willing to be there and be in the trenches with people. How do we do this? How do we shift from sort of trying to control the people in our lives to relating to them in a loving way? 

Love requires us to be uncomfortable sometimes.

We have first to want to change and have to be able to look at how we’re behaving. That’s the most powerful. Then, we have to have better boundaries. As you said, you’ve been working on your boundaries, right? Understanding what is mine and what is not mine to do. That can be really difficult. We have to learn to let people live, let them do what they need to do in their lives and not assume we know. That can be really difficult. We need to take care of ourselves. 

This is the thing when you’re a high-functioning codependent; you’re so busy worrying about other people. A lot of time, we do a lot of self-abandonment. Another thing that could be helpful is that before you take on another thing or say yes to another thing or another person, you run it by these two questions. So you buy time, no more auto-yessing. We have to tell people, “I’ll go back to you tomorrow. I’ll go back to you in five days,” whatever it is. Give yourself space to decide.

Oh, that’s hard for me. I’m actually working on that gap of not responding. I had to train myself to wait 24 hours before I react. I’m in Aries. It’s hard for me. I’m like, “Hold it. Wait a second. Think about it. Sleep on it.”

Me too. It’s so good to wait, though, as you say, because if we stop the auto-yes, then we can say, “Okay, here are these two questions. One, do I have the bandwidth to do this, to say yes to this without becoming resent? Number two, do I even friggin want to do it?” So much of the time, we don’t even give ourselves permission to want what we want with all our hearts. We go, “But my friend wants me to do it.” 

Sometimes, that plays in. Maybe I’ll do things a lot of times. Of course, if you’re in a relationship, you do things because other people want you to. That’s not a crime, but we need to think, “Why am I saying yes? Am I people-pleasing to someone who is not even a priority in my life or my VIP section? Why am I people-pleasing this acquaintance? I don’t need to please them.” And if doing it will make you resentful, then it’s not something you want to be doing, right? It’s really not.

We have to learn to let people live, let them do what they need to do in their lives and not assume we know.

I was thinking about an exercise I or somebody else can do to stop giving up and freaking out about what other people think. I used to host parties at home with lots of friends, and I would be so caring for everyone. I would not enjoy my parties. I would just be there for everyone. I just want to host a party, not care about other people and their feelings, and just be there for myself, just as an experiment to see how it feels like to have a party and not care about what other people think if they had what they need if they need anything.

Let’s reframe it, Orion. Let’s frame it as having a party and faith that the people at the party know where it is if they need something. Because when people come in, you go, “Hey, the drinks are over here. The food is over here. Go to it. Have a great time. I’ll mingle with you later.” Like you’re setting people up to realize you’re not going to be passing a plate around, making sure that they’re eating whatever the food is, they’re responsible. 

Part of it is going in sort of as a collaborative feeling like we’re all here to make connections with each other. As you go, “What’s important to me in this party is connecting with the people I love or people I was interested in getting to know more,” or inviting maybe some new friends. You get clear about, “That’s my priority, and I’m not going to over-function in the way of taking responsibility for the kind of time someone has at my party because whether they have a good or a bad time, that’s their side of the street.” 

You’ve provided everything possible to make them have a good time. Maybe they’re PMSing, maybe they just broke up with their partner, maybe they have a stomach ache, and they have a bad time because of any of those things that have nothing to do with you. So we allow other people to be not us. I’m not responsible for your time other than doing my best to provide what I think would be nice to have at a party. That’s a different frame. Where you go, I will have faith that it will be great. It doesn’t require me to be this Uber hostess. Why? So that they think of me in a particular way.

Yeah, so they will love me and think that I’m really cute. It all goes back to wanting to please because I want love, and I want to feel like I belong, and I’m good enough and all that good stuff. It all goes back to basic human needs, which are probably like some little child within us really wanting some love, and we can give them that love in different ways, right?

Hopefully, these are people you already like. Have faith. We need to reassure the children within all of us that we are worthy simply by virtue of being alive. You don’t have to throw a party. You don’t have to think about babies. Think about when your child was born. Were you like, “What have you done for me lately, two-year-old?” Of course not, right? We don’t expect them to cook us dinner or do anything.

Some days, I did. Just kidding.

But you know what I mean? You are that two-year-old, and I am that two-year-old worthy simply because we’re humans. It’s our nature to be worthy of love and acceptance. And so part of that is really believing that and reassuring the child within that. Also, sometimes, we just have to disappoint other people, and it has to be okay. If we never disappoint others, then we definitely self-abandoning.

So, you have a quiz on your website, and apparently, I’m an ice queen. At least I’m a queen.

That’s right. If people want to take the quiz, it’s free. They can go to boundaryquiz.com. It’s super easy. 13 questions. This will help you see how you’re relating right now.

But to be honest, there was one question for which none of the answers fit me, and some sounded exactly like me because, like in your video, you said there are many archetypes, and there were different archetypes at different times. I do archetype work, too, so I understand that, but let’s say I’m a pure ice queen. What can I improve on in my boundary communication?

We can create beautiful experiences in our lives, even in a hard world.

Well, if you’re an ice queen, you are more likely to shut down than tell someone that they’ve hurt your feelings or that you don’t like what they did. You can learn to slowly but surely start with less important people. And then we move up to the higher important people telling the truth about how you feel about whatever it is. Even if it’s something as simple as you ordered a salad at lunch and then they gave you a sandwich. Instead of just eating whatever they brought you, it’s not a big deal. It’s fine. Just send back the salad, get what you want, and prioritize how you feel.

That’s what I did today. As I said, when I sat with my little one, we had sushi, and they got him the wrong one, so I sent it back. So, I communicate my needs. But I also understood that sometimes I would rather shut down than deal with people. It takes a lot of energy to get into the “you did this, you did that” mentality. I’m just like, whatever. I’m just going to disappear into the ether slowly.

But here’s the thing that you did. That’s not how we’re approaching people. If you look at scripts that I provide for you in the book, we’re always coming from the point of view of “I,” which is, “I’d like to make a simple request that if you tell me you’re gonna be home at seven and you’re not gonna be home until 7.30, that you let me know so that I’m not waiting.” It’s always about us.

I don’t mean like, it’s always about us in a narcissistic way. I mean, if we’re looking at boundaries and they’re not controlled, because a lot of times people will say something as a boundary, but it’s not like they’re confused. I had someone who said, “Well, my boyfriend said this is the boundary. When I’m out with my friends, I have to talk to him or text him every hour.” And I’m like, “No, see, that’s not a boundary. That’s just a jealous boyfriend trying to control you.” So they’re different things. You know what I mean?

Yeah, that’s how we speak. I would like this. It would just make requests instead of saying, “You did this, you did that.” Then, you would just go into blame, shame, and pain, basically.

Exactly. And when we say, “I’d like to make a simple request, we’re asking for what we want,” right? We’re giving them all the information they need to get it right. Now, will they care? I don’t know. We’re going to see. Will you have to make that request more than once? You might. And that’s okay because we’ve been doing a lot of these, especially if it’s like your family.

Yes, it’s old patterns. They are stuck in a pattern. It’s hard to break people’s patterns.

Yes. I always think about relationships as dances because I do this, and you do that. It is a dance, but you think about our family of origin in particular. They’re the people we’ve been dancing with the longest. So, they will need a minute to catch onto the new steps. So, we have to be willing to hold our boundaries.

Absolutely. I want to ask you about the fear of rejection. What practical tips and action steps can we take to deal with that?

I think we have to have a deeper understanding of why it is so scary. In one respect, as humans, we need to be in a community from biological and physiological points of view. Think about cave people’s days. If you got kicked out of your tribe, you would definitely die. None of us love rejection. This is just a human thing that could be scary. It feels bad. 

We don’t like it, but we need to really examine our fear. When we have this amplified fear of rejection, it is a child’s fear. It is not our grown-up fear. Our grown-up self has been through it, and it is like, “Yeah, I’m going to be fine, regardless. I’m gonna be okay.” When we start to think that if this person we just started dating rejects us, it’s like the worst thing that will ever happen. Amplified fear is a child’s fear. We really need to tend to the child within. 

Amplified fear is a child’s fear. We need to tend to the child within.

I have these three questions that I give clients to ask themselves to see if they might be having a transference in that situation. So the questions are: (1) Who does this person remind me of? (2) Where have I felt like this before? (3) Why is this behavioral dynamic? How is the way you’re interacting familiar? 

A lot of times, this can reveal childhood wounds that need our attention, such as childhood situations that have frozen in time. So let’s say you’re dating a woman who was having such a fear of this guy that she started dating, rejecting her. Then she asked the question, and I said, “Who does he remind you of?” He reminded her of her father, who is very punitive and a very judgmental parent. So, this makes sense. 

It’s not the grownup you who’s afraid of this guy who you’ve known literally for two weeks. That’s not what we’re talking about. The fear is the childhood fear. So now we go back and look at what was your relationship to rejection with this punitive parent. Let’s talk about that because that is where you’re stuck. It’s not about this guy you’ve known for two weeks. When we have big feelings about people we barely know, we’re like, “Okay, that can’t be about them. I don’t love you. I don’t even know you.” 

So, I know that this is kicking up. What does it mean when we’re having a transference? It means that we’re having an experience in the current time that is being driven by and influenced by a similar experience from the past that is unresolved. As much as we’re all like, “Do I gotta keep talking about childhood?” I’m like, “Listen, you kind of do, but we can be specific about what we’re talking about, right?” 

It doesn’t have to be all the same things. That could be a helpful way. If you ask those questions—I call them the three cues for clarity if you want to try to understand why you’re having a big response to something. If you really look at it, you’re like, “Well, my reaction was way bigger than what that thing was.”

That’s amazing. But can you do it at the moment? Or you always have to go back and self-reflect. What if you don’t want to feel it in the moment?

When we experience a transference, our present experience is driven by and influenced by an unresolved similar experience.

Here’s the thing: you don’t want to feel it. Then you can do what’s coming to you: fight, flight, freeze, fawn, right? If we feel threatened that way, we will have an amplified screaming match about it. We’re going to freeze, say nothing, and sort of be choked right here where you’re just scared. So you’re not doing anything. We’re going to change the subject and say how great the person is if we’re going to fawn. There are all of these different reactions. But what happens is when you start identifying where this is happening for you, because here’s the thing: it’ll be repeated. It’s not going to be a one-time thing. When something needs our attention, we will repeatedly find ourselves having an amplified response to something similar. Think about who you like and who you do not like. What do you react to? What are the things in the world that bother you? All of us have our own triggers and things that make us activatable because of what we’ve experienced in our young lives. This is just what it is. We must intentionally go through and go, “This is a trigger for me. Let me try to go to that original injury and have a deeper understanding about it, journal about it, get into therapy about it, and talk to a friend about it.” This will help you be less triggerable, so to speak.

That’s a good advice. How do you create more self-love and self-acceptance and enjoy your own personal life?

I value self-consideration. Before I agree to do things and commit myself to things, the way I schedule my life is that I really think about, “Is this something I want to do? Is this something someone else is pressuring me to do?” Self-consideration means I’m really thinking about myself first. It doesn’t mean I won’t sacrifice for my 88-year-old mother, my husband of 27 years, or whomever. Obviously, we have long relationships. It means we sacrifice or compromise, but I hold myself in high esteem and work hard to take extremely good care of my nervous system. I meditate every day. I exercise every day. I have animals—geese and chickens. I live on a farm, and I have a dog.

My goodness, beautiful.

I’m in love with nature. I spend much time in nature, whether we have 10 inches of snow right now. So whether I’m snowshoeing, which I was doing before this or hiking in the woods, I don’t do anything online before 11 AM. I meditate with my husband. We play with the dog. We have our coffee. We talk about our day and what we’re going to do. I jump on my trampoline or hike or whatever I’m going to do for exercise. 

So, this is self-consideration, which I didn’t always do. I was a workaholic for decades. So trust me, this is new behavior in the last 10 years of having self-consideration and getting that to be my best self with the people I love and my friends. I’ve had the same friends since I was 60 and the same friends since I was four. I spend time with my girlfriends. I go away with them annually. I value relationships above probably everything else, but my relationship with myself is the most important relationship in my life.

Wow, that’s very inspiring. We used to live on a lake and had all those animals, including wild ducks and geese. It was really cool. It’s beautiful. Before we started, I asked why you lit that candle behind you. And you said, “Because I love it.” It’s so beautiful. I like everything that sparkles, and I love my environment. It’s just another level of this beautiful self-care you’re discussing. I’m sure it was a process. I didn’t wake up one day and think, “I’m going to live on the farm and light candles.”

No, no, it was definitely a process. But when you look at your environment, especially as an empath and a highly sensitive person, there is so much we can do daily to make our lives more comfortable. It doesn’t matter if other people don’t understand. My husband has been with me for many years. Of course, he understands that I need things a certain way, and I’m willing to work to make them that way. I like things to be quiet. I want things to smell good. I want my bed to be very soft and comfortable. I need my house to be clean. When you’re an empath and when you’re a highly sensitive person, you have to take them into consideration. I take care of my energy. I do energy work. I zip up my energy. I take these detoxifying baths. 

Very sensual.

I do a lot of things to keep as much of my bandwidth as possible because life and this hard world are trying to take it away.

That’s beautiful, and you’re doing amazing. Thank you so much. Before we say goodbye, I have two questions. Where can people find you, and what are your three top tips for living a stellar life?

I actually have a gift for you guys. You can go to terricole.com/HFC, which stands for high-function and co-dependent. There, you can find an HFC toolkit. These are just some free things to help you get on this path. If you want to get on this path, you can also take the quiz at boundaryquiz.com. Again, it’s free, but I think you guys will love it.

You can find me on my website, terricole.com, but I hang out mostly on Instagram. I also have a huge YouTube channel with 650 free videos. I have a podcast I’ve had for almost 10 years, the Terri Cole Show, which you can find anywhere you listen to podcasts. So, for anyone who’s feeling like, “I really need support, but I don’t have the money to get into therapy,” or “I really need support, but I don’t know where to start,” go to any of those resources.

I promise you, I’ve had people from all over the world say, “I wanted to get into therapy. I had no money, but I literally went through your YouTube channel for the past two years, and I am so much healthier and better.” So, no matter where you are in life, there is something that you can do that doesn’t cost you a dime. And sure, buy my book, hfcbook.com. It’s an amazing book. But what I’m saying is, let’s say you can’t buy my book. I put so much free material out there, even on the playing field, because I feel everyone has a right to good mental health. And I want to be a part of that. I am a part of that solution for sure.

Amazing. And do you want to share some tips for living a stellar life?

Prioritize yourself. It’s important. Prioritize sleep. It’s important. And move your body to whatever degree you are able. Move your body because that is freedom. Prioritize your health. You have to move. Jump on a trampoline like I do. Walk in the woods. Move your body.

Amazing. Terri, thank you so much. This was a pleasure. I really enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you for sharing your light with the world, being so open and genuine, and such a bright light. Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you, listeners. Remember to prioritize yourself, prioritize your sleep, move your body and have a stellar life. I am Orion till next time.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

{✓ } When dealing with others’ challenges, practice expansive questioning instead of giving immediate advice.

{✓ } Implement the Two-Question Decision Framework before committing to any request. Ask yourself: “Do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful?” and “Do I actually want to do this?” Give yourself time to decide instead of auto-agreeing. 

{✓ } Transform your response to others’ pain by replacing auto-fixing with compassionate witnessing.

{✓ } Develop strong self-consideration practices by scheduling dedicated morning time free from online activities.

{✓ } When triggered, use the Three Q’s for Clarity: “Who does this person remind me of?” “Where have I felt like this before?” and “How is this behavioral dynamic familiar?”

{✓ } Transform your communication style by replacing “you” statements with “I” statements. Be specific about what you want instead of what others did wrong.

{✓ } When hosting gatherings, practice healthy hosting by clearly stating where things are located upfront. Trust guests to ask if they need something, focus on making connections rather than perfect service and remember that you’re not responsible for others’ experiences.

{✓ } Establish clear boundaries by identifying what’s on your “side of the street” versus others’. Learn to distinguish between boundaries and control, start practicing with less important relationships first, and expect to repeat boundary statements as people adjust to the new dynamic.

{✓ } Build interdependent relationships by allowing others to help you instead of maintaining rigid independence.

{✓ } Continue your growth journey with Terri Cole. Visit terricole.com/HFC for a free High Functioning Codependency toolkit. Take the free boundary assessment at boundaryquiz.com, access 650+ videos on YouTube, and listen to The Terri Cole Show podcast.

Links and Resources

Connect with Terri Cole

Book

YouTube Video

About Terri Cole

Terri Cole is a licensed psychotherapist, a global relationship and empowerment expert, and the author of Boundary Boss and Too Much!

For over two decades, Terri has worked with a diverse client group, including everyone from stay-at-home moms to celebrities and Fortune 500 CEOs. She has a gift for making complex psychological concepts accessible and actionable so clients and students achieve sustainable change.

She inspires over a million people weekly through her blog, social media platform, signature courses, and popular podcast, The Terri Cole Show.  

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